There are those who call me... Tim?

[rj_anderson]

It has been suggested to me that I change the name of my young hero from book two of FAERY REBELS (a.k.a. REBEL in the UK). I am told that for most British people, especially of the younger generation, the name "Timothy" is considered fairly radically uncool.

I don't mind Timothy's name being unpopular, because he was born to missionary parents and raised in Uganda, and him not fitting in with the cool kids in England is kind of the point. However, if it's going to make all my young readers in the UK gag and put the book down hastily the moment they see it (as I'd be tempted to do if the hero's name was, say, "Leslie") then I suppose I would be foolish not to take that into account.

So I'm doing a poll. The first question is specifically for UK readers, but for the second I'd be glad to hear from anybody.

[Poll #1398565]

If you're not on LiveJournal, you can still participate by leaving a comment as "Anonymous". Thanks for helping me out on this.

Comments

[tybalt-quin.livejournal.com]

There are definite downsides to having a Tim, Timmy or Timothy as a character name in the UK.

Basically, you'd be giving a character name shared with Timmy Mallet (one of the most loathed tv presenters in the UK), Tim Henman (Britain's most successful tennis player who didn't really win anything), and Timmy the Dog from the Famous 5 books.

In fact, I think that the reason why the UK version of The Office had a character called Tim was to partly identify him as being a bit of a nice-but-loser-sadsack (he became Jim in the US version).

I do however like Thomas. It's a good strong name, Tom works just as well and you see a lot of kids nowadays who are called Tom or Tommy (which you don't get with Tim).

So yes. My vote is for Thomas.

[kiwiria.livejournal.com]

I love both names - actually Timothy is one of my favourite names in general, but granted, I'm not from the UK, so I don't have the associations tybalt_quin mentioned (I have read Famous Five though, but would never have thought to make that connection).

My problem with Thomas is that "a doubting Thomas" is pretty much a stereotype in some circles. I like the name though, so *shrug*.

But then, I may not be the right person to ask. Names generally won't make or break a book for me. If I like the book, I don't care about the names :-D

[rj-anderson.livejournal.com]

Names generally won't make or break a book for me. If I like the book, I don't care about the names :-D

Yes, that's how I feel, too. I absolutely loathe the name "Harry", but it didn't keep me from enjoying the Potter books. Usually I spend about a chapter wishing that the author had chosen some other name I like better, and then I get over it.

[olmue.livejournal.com]

Too bad Timothy has that connotation in the UK. It just sounds like it would fit into the Oakenworld. But Thomas would work, too.

[rj-anderson.livejournal.com]

Timothy is a plant name as well as a Bible name; that's one of the reasons I liked it.

[alison23.livejournal.com]

While I'm not in the UK, this strikes me as a bit odd considering how often the name Tim is used in their TV shows. For instance, the lead character in the sitcom Spaced, played by Simon Pegg, is named Tim. On the show Not Going Out, the main characters's "best mate" is named Tim. And then of course in the British version of The Office, Martin Freeman's character, who is kind of the everyman character, is named Tim. That was 3 just off the top of my head... I don't know about Timothy, though, just Tim.

(BTW, your blog displays oddly on my IE browser--it's hard to find the comments. On the main entry page I just see a whole long list of everyone's avatars. Then I have to go up and use the scroll bar to find their comments, which are separate from their avatars.)

P.S. I personally find Thomas to be very different than Tim--it seems much stronger to me. I guess "Tim" could have a subconscious a connotation of "timid."

[rj-anderson.livejournal.com]

Can you let me know which version of IE you're using, and whether you're on Mac or PC? If it's a persistent problem I'll have my web designer check it out.

Re Tim, it's been suggested to me that the situation would be improved if I just changed his name from "Timothy" to "Tim" throughout the narration. But I tried it and I just... I couldn't. It looked totally stupid to me. Maybe I need to try it again and give myself more time to get used to it, but right now I'd rather change the name entirely than shorten it.

[ozratbag2.livejournal.com]

I'm hopeless with character names, so I think it's pretty much up to you what name you choose for your hero. :)

I had a quick look on the web for boys names in the UK circa 1995, and the link is here (http://baby2see.com/names/topboysnamesrestuk.html). It's only giving Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, but it might help.

BTW, do you know if your first book has come out in Australia? I've been keeping an eye on the new titles, but haven't seen it yet. I haven't looked for a couple of weeks, which I'll be remedying when I'm up the street tomorrow.

[melwil.livejournal.com]

I bought Knife in Australia about two/three weeks ago, but my hubby had to do a bit of searching :( Most bookshops I talked to said they'd order it in though

[dichroic.livejournal.com]

Had you asked me up to about 1995, I'd have called Harry a grandpa name.

[mistraltoes.livejournal.com]

Oh, dang; I didn't see the 'I'm from the UK' bit. Just factor me out, sorry. I'm blaming it on the fact that I'm not wearing my glasses.

Having said that, lots of kids don't like their own names, and I'll bet there are plenty of those in your target readership. And there are plenty of odd names in the Potter books. I wouldn't change it unless your editor is the person making the suggestion.

[lizbee.livejournal.com]

I accidentally voted in your poll, too. HOWEVER. Timothy seems like a perfectly okay name to me (Tim Brooke-Taylor!), and recent popular kids/teen novels have included characters named Harry, Ron, Hermione, Lyra, Edward ... not to mention a major UK TV series with young female leads named "Rose" and "Martha". I don't think it's an insurmountable gap -- not like naming a character "Nigel" or "Wally" or "Willy" or "Slang Word For Genitalia".

[alison23.livejournal.com]

Rose, Martha, and let's not forget Donna... I don't know the connotation of Donna in the UK, but in the US, it hasn't been fashionable since the mid-60s, if it ever was.

[tezmilleroz.livejournal.com]

I'm from Australia, where most names are shortened. Unless your name is one syllable, in which case it will be lengthened ;-) Thus I'd be fine with Tim or Tom, but Timothy or Thomas wouldn't be as relatable.

[camillofan.livejournal.com]

1. I, too, always get the crazy display of your blog (I use IE on a PC). Icons do not stick to posts or comments, but instead appear in a lonely vertical line at the bottom of the page (*far* below the rest of the content and all of the images & backgrounds, accessible only by the window's outer scroll bar).

2. Not a UK-er, but I knew my share of Timothys there, back in the day. I guess the name has acquired the extremely uncool patina in the last couple decades?

3. I don't think Thomas-- though it's a fine name-- substitutes well for what it'd be replacing. It scans all strong and trochaic (presuming you don't intend to shorten it to "Tom"); not particularly retro or outsider-ish. I'd look for another dactyl, like Jeremy (also a "wet" name across the pond??? when did this happen?), Anthony, Jonathan, Adrian, Nicholas, Joshua, Gregory, Gabriel, Christopher, etc. (those aren't all equally good, to my mind, but you get what I mean).

4. P.S. I named my third son (a.k.a. "the mid-life surprise") Harry-- not after Potter, whose adventures I've famously not read, but after my dad. (With two sons already, Hubby and I ran out of Biblical names we liked equally, and my suggestion that we use cricketers' names didn't bowl him over...) I was a bit nervous about Harry, because I natually associated the name with old men, but now I love it. Interestingly, I had thought that the Potter phenomenon might give the boy some company in the schools (he was born the day the first movie was released), but the name does not seem to have made a comeback.

[tree_and_leaf]

NOT ADRIAN. In the context of UK children's lit, it's inextricable from Adrian Mole (and is generally considered a fairly hideous name - worse than Timothy) Jeremy is also not good.

Old fashioned names are back in at the moment, anyway, so I don't think RJ needs to worry (I know a toddler called Harry, and lots of Jacks, neither of which I could have predicted ten years ago).

[yahtzee63.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I've never liked the name Timothy -- I disliked it when I was a kid -- and I could never explain why. I don't know why. It's like my dislike for "Samuel" or "Ella," a very kneejerk thing. But I never try to impose this on other people, because I get that it's an irrational thing.

Long story short, I'd love him as Thomas.

[fandoria.livejournal.com]

I LOVE the name Thomas. It's my favorite boy's name. Just not Tom or Tommy.

But, I'm one of those people that once I get to know someone or a character, their name becomes them for me. Changing their name, for me, changes them. I am not a fan of changing character names. So I wouldn't change the name unless you absolutely have to.

Speaking as someone from the UK...

[tree_and_leaf]

Timothy's fine; though he'd probably get people trying to call him Tim or Timmy (*gag*)

[branquignole.livejournal.com]

Please don't call him Thomas! Timothy's just fine with me, especially because of the reasons you had to call him that. I really like the name. I just can't tell you anything about how that would be seen in the UK, as I'm from Germany, but it seems that enough people have already done just that.

[infiniteviking]

(Um, I accidentally voted on the first question too, but for "will tell you in the comments", so I hope that doesn't mess you up too much!)

As to 'Timothy' v. 'Tim', I'd think that would depend on who was speaking to him and whether he thinks of himself with the long version or the short one. Personally, I'd take to the full name first, but more readily for a non-human character; for me, it's inextricably linked with little Timothy Mouse from the Rats of Nimh stories, so when I hear it my immediate reaction is "faithful and brave, but unusually small and frail... a heart too stout for such a slight body". So my quibble is very, very specific.

Thomas I see as stronger for some obscure reason; it brings up an impression of wary defiance and a restless mind, one at home in many worlds and free to move among them, but not yet fully grown into his own powers or desires. A Timothy I could imagine on his knees before his foes, but not because of fear; a Thomas, taking them out with a few quick strikes and then second-guessing the rightness of it. Amazing how years of subtle usages shape our impressions of names.

And tybault_quin's comments below mentioned Jeremy and Nigel: both names I'd read for.

rambling

[lesserstorm.livejournal.com]

Hi

I posted in the poll so thought I'd add; Tim definitely better than Timothy -- otherwse raises the charcterisation question of why he doesn't shorten an old fashioned name, but I think Tim is unexceptional. Tom better than Thomas for similar reasons. Tom sounds less wimpy to me but more upper or upper middle class. then again I'm in my thirties and I think it's more common among todays kids of all classes than it would be among my contemporaries. I do know cnildren (mainly my friends' kids and under 8) called Tom who are not particularly upper crust.

[emmaco.livejournal.com]

I've been in the UK for over a year and half now, so decided I could vote in the first poll :) I think Timothy isn't weird enough (not like Leslie!) to warrant changing it, especially if you want to convey an old-fashioned feel to the character.

[commentcat.livejournal.com]

Seriously? This is an issue? Because of a name? I'm boggled, I truly am.

I think the name Timothy is fine.. Thomas is ok too. But it just seems odd to have to change a character from UK to North American publications.

Maybe this is why I never actually followed through on my writing aspirations. ;)

[vdansk]

I'm philosophically opposed to your changing Timothy's name. Partially because it's such a complex name--connotations of plants, healing, timidity and strength--and partially because there are Timothy's out there who need a good role-model. Mostly, though, because his name is linked, in you, to his soul. That's why you're having trouble changing it. I think you absolutely shouldn't change it unless your editor insists.

I, too, dislike the name Harry. And Ron, for that matter. Ginny as a nickname for Virginia leaves me cold. And yet I DEVOURED the Harry Potter books. So, although I personally love the name Timothy, I don't think it matters if readers like it or not. The story will suck them in, and by the end, THIS will be there association with that name.

[sarahsan]

Not from the U.K. and therefore have no real opinion (except to say that Tim Rice-Oxley of Keane is a pretty okay guy, imo), but I did want to say that, while the opinions of any native U.K. folk will of course be helpful, you won't get much response from your target demographic: younger readers. I know in certain circles I at 22 would be considered a "younger" reader, but I mean actual young adults from the U.K. who might just not be willing to overlook an unpopular name as an older/more mature reader would be willing to do. And even if I were to say, "Well, when I was a kid the names didn't really affect me," you can't have any real input from kids in 2009, who may have different expectations of and relationships with books than kids did in the 90s or 70s or 50s.

[miladygrey.livejournal.com]

Well, thanks to the entry title, my first association with the name Timothy was Monty Python. *grins* That might actually lure in more readers!

I like both Timothy and Thomas as names, but Tim and Tom rather less. Maybe you could have the character (I don't know how old he is) trying to grow out of his childhood name of Tim/Timmy/Tom/Tommy and insisting that he be called by the so very more mature "Timothy" or "Thomas"?

[loriel-eris.livejournal.com]

I'm 25 and in the UK. And I was never cool, even as a child, so not sure if my opinon helps!

In general conversation, when someone mentions Timothy (tho not Tim or Timmy) my immediate association is with The Famous Five. However, in a book etc, I'll make the connection eventually, but it's not an immediate association.

As for the name itself. It isn't a 'cool' name, but I do associate it with the more traditional names. Maybe not quite as traditional and James, William or John, but in that direction. And I don't see it as uncool. I also much prefer Timothy to Timmy. I'll suffer Tim if necessary, but still prefer Timothy to Tim.

I like Tim or Timothy better than Thomas. And I prefer Tom to Thomas. It's also possible that if you weren't changing the name of a character I already know and love, I'd tell you I prefer Tom over Timothy and Tim. *g*

Basically, I never even gave Timothy's name a second thought, other than a fleeting, "Oh, you don't hear a lot of kids called Timothy nowadays."

[lferion]

Not from the UK, and personally I quite like the name Timothy.

My concern is *changing an already established character's name*

If it changes in the context of the story -- goes from Timothy to Tim, say, as a choice he makes or is made for him somehow -- that can be cool and work well. Even if he decides he wants to be called Thomas instead of Timothy, that can be an interesting story element. But it needs to be part of the story somehow.

Just changing it -- having the reader open the book and discover that the person they thought they knew isn't named the same thing -- is, for me, a horrible & throw-me-right-out-of-the-story thing, and will badly effect my reading of the book, sometimes to the point of not reading further than the second time it comes up.

I still haven't entirely forgiven Susan Matthews for changing Garol's name to Karol in the fifth book, even with her note of explanation about how to her it always should have been Karol & the publisher had her use something else. I spent the whole book being unpleasantly startled every time I saw the name, because *to me* he had always been named Garol.

[rj-anderson.livejournal.com]

Changing a character's name mid-series would be horrible, indeed -- but this is a new character who isn't even mentioned in the first book, so that's not a problem.

(He did appear in early drafts of the first book, though, which means he's been Timothy in my head since 1994... and it's awfully hard to change the name of somebody you've known for fifteen years.)

[kalquessa.livejournal.com]

I'm all for giving characters anvilicious names, so I say go for it with Thomas if you decide to change. I qite like Timothy, too, but then I'm not English.

[ewein2412]

you know my english husband is called Tim.

[rj-anderson.livejournal.com]

I didn't, but now I do!