There are those who call me... Tim?

[rj_anderson]

It has been suggested to me that I change the name of my young hero from book two of FAERY REBELS (a.k.a. REBEL in the UK). I am told that for most British people, especially of the younger generation, the name "Timothy" is considered fairly radically uncool.

I don't mind Timothy's name being unpopular, because he was born to missionary parents and raised in Uganda, and him not fitting in with the cool kids in England is kind of the point. However, if it's going to make all my young readers in the UK gag and put the book down hastily the moment they see it (as I'd be tempted to do if the hero's name was, say, "Leslie") then I suppose I would be foolish not to take that into account.

So I'm doing a poll. The first question is specifically for UK readers, but for the second I'd be glad to hear from anybody.

[Poll #1398565]

If you're not on LiveJournal, you can still participate by leaving a comment as "Anonymous". Thanks for helping me out on this.

Comments

[tybalt-quin.livejournal.com]

There are definite downsides to having a Tim, Timmy or Timothy as a character name in the UK.

Basically, you'd be giving a character name shared with Timmy Mallet (one of the most loathed tv presenters in the UK), Tim Henman (Britain's most successful tennis player who didn't really win anything), and Timmy the Dog from the Famous 5 books.

In fact, I think that the reason why the UK version of The Office had a character called Tim was to partly identify him as being a bit of a nice-but-loser-sadsack (he became Jim in the US version).

I do however like Thomas. It's a good strong name, Tom works just as well and you see a lot of kids nowadays who are called Tom or Tommy (which you don't get with Tim).

So yes. My vote is for Thomas.

[kiwiria.livejournal.com]

I love both names - actually Timothy is one of my favourite names in general, but granted, I'm not from the UK, so I don't have the associations tybalt_quin mentioned (I have read Famous Five though, but would never have thought to make that connection).

My problem with Thomas is that "a doubting Thomas" is pretty much a stereotype in some circles. I like the name though, so *shrug*.

But then, I may not be the right person to ask. Names generally won't make or break a book for me. If I like the book, I don't care about the names :-D

[olmue.livejournal.com]

Too bad Timothy has that connotation in the UK. It just sounds like it would fit into the Oakenworld. But Thomas would work, too.

[rj-anderson.livejournal.com]

Names generally won't make or break a book for me. If I like the book, I don't care about the names :-D

Yes, that's how I feel, too. I absolutely loathe the name "Harry", but it didn't keep me from enjoying the Potter books. Usually I spend about a chapter wishing that the author had chosen some other name I like better, and then I get over it.

[rj-anderson.livejournal.com]

Timothy is a plant name as well as a Bible name; that's one of the reasons I liked it.

[tybalt-quin.livejournal.com]

:flails:

I've re-read my comment and have just realised that it sounds like I'm hating on Timothys!

Sorry - I have absolutely nothing against Timothys. There are some fine Timothys in the UK - Timothy Spall for example, who plays Pettigrew in the Harry Potter films - smashing bloke, great actor, national treasure.

It's just that there is an image that pops into my head when I hear the name and it is quite a common one in the UK because it's got a bit of a jokey, negative connotation to it. In fact, I've got to admit that my first thought on reading it was a flashback to an 80s sitcom called Sorry! that starred Ronnie Corbett and had the catchphrase, "Language, Timothy!".

It could be that kids won't pick up on that because they can be pretty oblivious to things like that (there's a kid who sometimes takes my bus to work called Wally, which definitely has negative UK connotations), but the parents are likely to pick up on it and given that they're the ones who buy the books, it's possible that it will have an impact over here.

Gah. Have probably just dug myself into a bigger hole. I'll put the shovel down now and back away.

[kiwiria.livejournal.com]

The only names I really take an issue with is if the author chooses a name I typically associate with a female for a male character or vice versa - and it's not that I dislike it as such, it just throws me for a loop every time I'm reminded that the character is not the gender I thought he/she was.

So if you decide to call the main character Abraham and it's a girl... I might wonder what on earth you were doing ;)

[kiwiria.livejournal.com]

Oh, please don't worry! It didn't sound like you were hating on Timothys at all. I just read it as you giving examples of associations people might make, and that might be reasons to stay away from that name :-)

[alison23.livejournal.com]

While I'm not in the UK, this strikes me as a bit odd considering how often the name Tim is used in their TV shows. For instance, the lead character in the sitcom Spaced, played by Simon Pegg, is named Tim. On the show Not Going Out, the main characters's "best mate" is named Tim. And then of course in the British version of The Office, Martin Freeman's character, who is kind of the everyman character, is named Tim. That was 3 just off the top of my head... I don't know about Timothy, though, just Tim.

(BTW, your blog displays oddly on my IE browser--it's hard to find the comments. On the main entry page I just see a whole long list of everyone's avatars. Then I have to go up and use the scroll bar to find their comments, which are separate from their avatars.)

P.S. I personally find Thomas to be very different than Tim--it seems much stronger to me. I guess "Tim" could have a subconscious a connotation of "timid."

[rj-anderson.livejournal.com]

No need to flail! Honest opinions and input from people in the know is precisely what this discussion is for!

On an uncoolness/wimpiness level, would "Timothy" be on a par with, say, "Jeremy" or "Barnaby", or is it somehow more extreme than either of those? I get the uncoolness factor in the latter two names, though it doesn't strike me as fatal, more a sort of "Well, you're going to have to work to get over that" kind of thing.

[rj-anderson.livejournal.com]

Can you let me know which version of IE you're using, and whether you're on Mac or PC? If it's a persistent problem I'll have my web designer check it out.

Re Tim, it's been suggested to me that the situation would be improved if I just changed his name from "Timothy" to "Tim" throughout the narration. But I tried it and I just... I couldn't. It looked totally stupid to me. Maybe I need to try it again and give myself more time to get used to it, but right now I'd rather change the name entirely than shorten it.

[alison23.livejournal.com]

P.S. Don't books and movies often use names that aren't popular in the real world? Seems like so many Newbery-type books have girls named Opal and Olive and Matilda and other names that would get a double-take in real life. If it's in the faery world, it seems even less likely to need to be popular in the real world.

[ozratbag2.livejournal.com]

I'm hopeless with character names, so I think it's pretty much up to you what name you choose for your hero. :)

I had a quick look on the web for boys names in the UK circa 1995, and the link is here (http://baby2see.com/names/topboysnamesrestuk.html). It's only giving Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, but it might help.

BTW, do you know if your first book has come out in Australia? I've been keeping an eye on the new titles, but haven't seen it yet. I haven't looked for a couple of weeks, which I'll be remedying when I'm up the street tomorrow.

[dichroic.livejournal.com]

Had you asked me up to about 1995, I'd have called Harry a grandpa name.

[mistraltoes.livejournal.com]

Oh, dang; I didn't see the 'I'm from the UK' bit. Just factor me out, sorry. I'm blaming it on the fact that I'm not wearing my glasses.

Having said that, lots of kids don't like their own names, and I'll bet there are plenty of those in your target readership. And there are plenty of odd names in the Potter books. I wouldn't change it unless your editor is the person making the suggestion.

[alison23.livejournal.com]

I'm using IE 7.06. I've had this problem on your page for a while. Strangely, posting a comment fixes the way it looks, but if I reload the problem comes back.

I wasn't actually thinking you should use Tim instead of Timothy, but I think of them as fairly interchangeable--I assumed any positive connotations of "Tim" would also extend to "Timothy"! What about Timothy Dalton--is he just too old to give the name Timothy any cred?

[melwil.livejournal.com]

I bought Knife in Australia about two/three weeks ago, but my hubby had to do a bit of searching :( Most bookshops I talked to said they'd order it in though

[ozratbag2.livejournal.com]

Oh, excellent! :D

Thanks for that and I have a couple of great independent booksellers close to me that probably have copies.

[lizbee.livejournal.com]

I work for a Major Book Chain in Melbourne, and it's all over the place down here. Not that I've been pointedly checking every single bookstore I've passed, except that I have. Only the Readings chain don't carry it, and their staff are awful, so I don't feel they deserve it.

[lizbee.livejournal.com]

I accidentally voted in your poll, too. HOWEVER. Timothy seems like a perfectly okay name to me (Tim Brooke-Taylor!), and recent popular kids/teen novels have included characters named Harry, Ron, Hermione, Lyra, Edward ... not to mention a major UK TV series with young female leads named "Rose" and "Martha". I don't think it's an insurmountable gap -- not like naming a character "Nigel" or "Wally" or "Willy" or "Slang Word For Genitalia".

[tezmilleroz.livejournal.com]

I'm from Australia, where most names are shortened. Unless your name is one syllable, in which case it will be lengthened ;-) Thus I'd be fine with Tim or Tom, but Timothy or Thomas wouldn't be as relatable.

[tybalt-quin.livejournal.com]

On an uncoolness/wimpiness level, would "Timothy" be on a par with, say, "Jeremy" or "Barnaby", or is it somehow more extreme than either of those?

It's about on a par with Jeremy and Barnaby (although Jeremy is more common a name in the UK than Barnaby is, but again that's with men over a certain age). Another comparator would be 'Nigel'.

[tybalt-quin.livejournal.com]

While I'm not in the UK, this strikes me as a bit odd considering how often the name Tim is used in their TV shows.

It's a bit difficult to explain but it's because the connotations associated with the name 'Tim' get fed into the sitcom character so a UK audience hears the name and understands what the character's basically going to be like so it becomes part of the joke. Does that make sense? Sorry, am probably not explaining it well.

Spaced is actually an interesting example because although the Tim in that was supposed to be seen as a bit of a loser but I thought he ended up with geek cool appeal.

[ozratbag2.livejournal.com]

Not that I've been pointedly checking every single bookstore I've passed, except that I have.

LOL! Best way to be, really. :)

I'm in Sydney and lucky enough to have a couple of good independent booksellers close, as well as a couple of large bookshop chains.

Luckily, I don't think Readings has infiltrated Sydney...yet. Knowledgable booksellers will always get more sales from me, not that it's that hard in the first place. ;)

[kerravonsen]

Re Tim, it's been suggested to me that the situation would be improved if I just changed his name from "Timothy" to "Tim" throughout the narration. But I tried it and I just... I couldn't. It looked totally stupid to me.
Oh I agree. Tim feels completely different to Timothy for me. Tim makes me think of "Tiny Tim", it just feels weak. Whereas I like "Timothy", it feels old-fashioned, yes, but more robust, somehow.

I don't like "Thomas". I'm not sure about "Tom". It somehow makes me think of the kind of character in fairy-tales who is a simpleton... ah, I know what I'm thinking of, I'm thinking of the song "Thomas the rhymer", where the character in question saw the Queen of Faerie and bowed and said "All hail the mighty Queen of Heaven", which struck me as a bit simple-minded. Then one has "Tom Thumb", but on the other hand, one has "Tom Bombadil".

But in any case, either one of them is better than Eustace Clarence... 8-)