So there it is, and there we are...

[rj_anderson]

Well, lizbee, Melanie a.k.a. DrummerGirl, and anyone else I've forgotten who attempted without success to persuade me of the virtues (or at least the plausibility) of a certain ship over the years... I repent in sackcloth and ashes.

Based on Part III of the Leaky Cauldron/MuggleNet interview with JKR, it looks like you were right, and I was wrong. And I admit that freely and without bitterness.

Those who remember my old posts to the Snapefans Yahoo!Group back in 2001-02 will remember how vehemently I was opposed to the idea of Snape/Lily, and how strongly I argued against it, feeling it was a loathsome cliche to which JKR would surely not stoop. Of course, I was operating on the assumption (as were a lot of people at the time) that James and Lily had been fast friends, and then boyfriend/girlfriend, practically since they arrived at Hogwarts and so any idea of Snape/Lily would necessarily involve Poor!Pathetic!Snape crushing on James Potter's girl from afar, and hating James primarily because he was Lily's boyfriend. After all, at that point all we knew of Lily was that she was beautiful and self-sacrificing, and all we knew of James was that he was well-liked and popular. I could not imagine any scenario in which Lily might have been close to Snape, except out of some cloying pity or else in an effort to make James jealous, and both ideas made my skin crawl.

But who could have foreseen the revelations of OotP, much less HBP?

Finding out that the hatred between James and Snape had arisen at Hogwarts as a result of James's spiteful bullying and Snape's retaliations, and had nothing whatsoever to do with rivalry for Lily, certainly made the idea of Snape/Lily more bearable. Especially once it became clear, thanks to the "Snape's Worst Memory" scene, that Lily had loathed James and attempted to defend Snape (however unwelcome, from Snape's point of view, that intervention on her part may have been).

And now we have pharnabazus's theory, which I think very likely, that Snape and Lily worked together to develop the potions and charms that Harry found scribbled in the "Half-Blood Prince"'s old textbook (which Snape must have bought second-hand, like the books we see at Spinner's End) and that when Hermione said she thought the handwriting was a woman's, she was really not far off the mark. Lily may have been the one responsible for noting down the discoveries that she and Snape made, and it may have been her skewed sense of humour that led her to nickname Snape the Half-Blood Prince, rather than any Riddleesque conceit on Snape's part about his bloodlines (after all, it was purebloods who were the elite under Voldemort, not half-bloods, and would Snape really have been that proud of being the son of the Hogwarts Gobstones champion? But I can easily see Lily being amused to find out that Snape was a "Prince").

So, if Snape and Lily were friends and co-conspirators long before James came on the scene, and it was only after the breakup of their friendship (recorded for us in "Snape's Worst Memory" -- I can easily imagine that Lily's pride would not have allowed her to reconcile with Severus after he'd called her "Mudblood" in public) that Lily began dating James, then most of my original objections to the Snape/Lily scenario are removed. I still don't foresee myself writing it as a grand romance -- especially as I don't really think it was, or at least hadn't yet got to that point -- but I can accept it as an important part of Snape's background, and something which helps to explain both Snape's instant hatred of Harry (talk about mixed feelings -- the brat looks like the long-hated James, but something deep down in Snape probably also felt, 'This could have been my son, if I hadn't screwed up everything by driving Lily away") and his genuine horror at learning that reporting Trelawney's Prophecy to Voldemort had resulted in the Potters' deaths. James, feh -- but Lily --!

Not that I believe, even now, in LOLLIPOPS as such -- I don't think that Snape's bitterness and misanthropy are wholly or even mostly explained by his thwarted passion for Lily Potter. Not that the latter isn't a contributing factor, especially considering his particularly venomous attitude to the Marauders and Harry, not to mention Neville. Digressing a moment to talk about Neville, what do you bet that in the years after Godric's Hollow Snape tried to console himself that the mistake was Voldemort's more than his, that Neville and his parents were the ones Voldemort should have gone after, and left James and Lily alone? If so, when Snape finally got Neville in his class, the boy's persistent magical incompetence would have hit him like a slap in the face, because every failure on Neville's part would make it that much more blatantly unlikely that he had been the Chosen One. Then again, it could simply be that seeing Neville reminds Snape of the whole horrible prophecy scenario, and that in the unreasonable emotional way that people sometimes do, he hates Neville for reminding him of his own most terrible mistake. (I'm not saying Snape's attitude to Neville is in any way reasonable or justified, mind. I'm just saying it doesn't come completely out of left field.)

Anyway, back to LOLLIPOPS. I don't think it was Love of Lily that Left Ire Polluting Our Poor Severus, because as I said before, he hated James for his own sake, long before James/Lily materialized. I think Severus had quite enough Ire of his own, thanks to his upbringing and the way he was picked on at Hogwarts. You don't develop something like Sectusempra to use on your enemies (as Snape does on James in OotP) without having a fair bit of Ire behind you to begin with.

I am reminded of the conversation between Cameron and Stacy in the season finale of "House", where Cameron asks Stacy what House was like before the infarction that ruined his leg, and Stacy pauses and then says, "Pretty much the same." You can tell Cameron's been entertaining romantic notions that it's only pain and disability that make House the cranky, sarcastic misanthrope we all know and love, whereas Stacy's experience of House both pre- and post-infarction tells her (unless she's lying to put Cameron off, but I can't see why she'd bother) that the cynicism, bluntness and arrogance are genuine House traits, not just symptoms of his chronic pain. In other words, don't get any goofy notions about changing him, Cameron, even if you think he'll let you get close enough to try -- what you see is who House is. And I think the same is true of Snape. He would never have been a charming, sociable man, even if he'd never lost Lily; he would always have been wary and defensive, and not suffered fools gladly, and been apt to make cutting remarks, and if the young Mr. and Mrs. Snape had ever been socially accepted it would have been on Lily's account, certainly not because of Severus.

Anyway, even if having been loved does make Snape more "culpable" in JKR's view, there is a part of me that is absurdly pleased with the idea. At least it's now established that it is possible for someone to love him, or at least was possible once upon a time (and since I don't think he's changed that much over the years, I would stick with the "is" myself). And, it seems, Snape is (or was) capable of loving as well, judging by JKR's deliberate evasion when questioned about his feelings toward Lily. In short, the idea of Snape romance is not dead as some have insisted -- it's just not conventional and it's not of the hearts-and-flowers variety. But then, it never was.

Oh, and on another positive note, JKR has now unequivocally stated that Pensieve memories are reliable -- indeed more reliable than memory. So to all the people who insisted that the Marauders could never possibly have behaved as badly as Snape remembers, and that Snape must have done something we didn't see to provoke James's attack -- ha ha, na na na na boo boo, pffft.

And now that I have impressed you all with my maturity, I shall wander off and work some more on my fic.

Comments

[kizmet-42.livejournal.com]

as a result of James's spiteful bullying and Snape's retaliations

Snape came to school knowing more hexes than a 7th year student and was immersed in the Dark Arts. Sirius (or perhaps Remus) said that Snape and James hated each other on sight. While I'm not going to defend James - he was a bully, undoubtedly - I think the evidence proves that both were equally responsible.

[rj-anderson.livejournal.com]

Equally responsible for what, though? The mutual hatred, or the particular incident Harry witnesses in the Pensieve? The people who were arguing that Pensieve memories are not reliable were saying that Snape had censored or modified the memory to make himself look more innocent in that particular case than he really was, and this is what JKR conclusively disproved in her interview. So when Lily says in the "Snape's Worst Memory" incident, "He hasn't done anything to you!" and James agrees with her that this is the case ("It's more the fact that he exists..."), that really is the literal truth of the matter, uncoloured by any bias or tampering of Snape's. So as much as Snape may have hated James, it would seem that he hadn't actually done anything to provoke or deserve physical bullying from James up until that point, and even James was prepared to admit that.

Snape no doubt did any number of nasty things to James and the other Marauders after that point (though I suspect they scored off Snape a great deal more often, it being a case of four against one) but at this particular point in his Hogwarts career, he hadn't done anything to them, with or without the Dark Arts.

[straussmonster.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure if we can say that last bit for sure. "It's more the fact that he exists" is a loaded statement in any number of ways.

What I wish we'd found out about was the "gang of Slytherins" in terms of chronology, interaction, anything. And maybe how the curse which Snape seems to have invented (the single ankle lifter, seen in use early in GoF as well) got around the school.

[rj-anderson.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure if we can say that last bit for sure. "It's more the fact that he exists" is a loaded statement in any number of ways.

Not in the context. Like I said, Lily has just said that Snape hasn't done anything to deserve James's bullying, and James's response is that sure, this is true, but he doesn't care whether it's justified or not because he finds it offensive that Snape even exists. I really don't see a way of interpreting it to mean, "No, Lily, you're wrong, Snape has in fact been attacking me with his nasty little hexes since Day One and now I'm just giving him some well-deserved payback." Given that James would like to get on Lily's good side, he would surely have said as much if Snape had done anything to deserve bullying that Lily didn't know about.

As for the gang of Slytherins, they sure aren't there in "Snape's Worst Memory" -- the picture seems to be of Snape as very much an oddball loner, with no one to protect or defend him from MWPP. It seems to me most likely that he got in with the "gang" after the events shown in OotP.

And I bet Snape would have liked to know how James got a hold of that spell too, which may account for his savagery toward Lily -- although it's also possible that Snape learned it (however unwillingly) from James and wrote it down afterward, rather than the other way around.

[straussmonster.livejournal.com]

I think in any context it's loaded, because it speaks to what James sees Snape as being, at root. An ontological problem, if you will.

Problem is that Bella's one of the gang; and per OotP and HBP, Bella is older than Sirius (he says he hasn't seen her since he was Harry's age). JKR sucks at chronology, but not THAT badly. There must be a reason why Sirius says Snape was involved with this group who all went on to be DE's; he's been right about Snape knowing a lot of hexes and such. Is it so hard to imagine young Snape enjoying watching Bella fight with her younger cousin?

Lupin mentions that the spell was very popular.

[jeanstarwind.livejournal.com]

I really like what you're arguing here, but I feel the need to be a bit more cautious about what JKR says. Indeed, because I would like what you're arguing to be true I feel as though I should step back for a moment and consider other lines of argument. So I must ask: Does the fact that Severus was loved by someone necessarily mean that it was a romantic love? I realize that with Snape there are very few other options in that regard, but I would at least offer up his parents as suggestions. Though, given even what little we know of them I think his mother would be a more plausible option than his father.

[rj-anderson.livejournal.com]

Well, sure there are other kinds of love -- in one of my stories Snape states that Dumbledore was one of only two people who ever loved him, for instance. It still could be Dumbledore, I suppose, though I'm a good deal less confident of that now than I once was. Not that I think DD didn't care for Snape, but when he's talking to Harry in OotP, he confesses that his tender feelings toward Harry caused him to try and spare him the emotional pain of finding out the truth about the prophecy -- a serious mistake, as he admits. Whereas I don't get the sense that DD has gone out of his way at any point to spare Snape from things that might pain him, so it seems a little less likely that DD has ever felt toward Snape the kind of paternal fondness he feels for Harry.

As you say, it could be that one of Snape's parents loved him, but from the flashes of memory Harry saw in Snape's mind in OotP, it doesn't strike me as especially likely. Or at least, if either Eileen or Tobias ever loved their son, Severus doesn't seem to have been particularly aware of it, judging from the little boy cowering in the corner while his parents fought and the miserable teenager zapping flies all alone in his room.

Of course, there's nothing to prove that Lily's love for Snape ever actually progressed to the romantic stage either. In fact I think it somewhat unlikely that it did. I think she may well have genuinely loved him as a friend -- not that she couldn't perhaps have come to love him romantically also, but it would have taken her some time -- while the romantic feelings were more on Snape's part.

[jeanstarwind.livejournal.com]

...Severus doesn't seem to have been particularly aware of it, judging from the little boy cowering in the corner while his parents fought and the miserable teenager zapping flies all alone in his room.

I do see your point, but I wonder if we can take those snapshots of Snape's memory as representative of his whole childhood. Particularly in the case of the second memory - what teenager hasn't sat moped in their room, miserable with boredom and perhaps a little angry about their lot in life? Though I believe from the first memory we can probably safely say that Snape did not come from a happy home, that does not necessarily mean that he was not loved by at least one parent.

I think she may well have genuinely loved him as a friend...while the romantic feelings were more on Snape's part.

I most certainly agree with you here. I'm not (and never really have been) a Lily/Severus shipper, but initially after reading the books I wondered if unrequited love on Severus' part (which thus provoked huge feelings of guilt and remorse after hearing what had happened to the Potters) was a large part of what convinced Dumbledore to trust Snape. Though it sounds like such a loose thing to base so much trust on, part of me wonders if it might be enough for Albus Dumbledore. Throughout all six books we've seen him place great stock in the power of love, and in his desire to give sincerely remorseful people second chances in life. If Snape genuinely possessed both the ability to love (as buried and hidden as it might be from everyone else) as well as a desire to make things right, could this have been enough for Dumbledore?

[rj-anderson.livejournal.com]

I do see your point, but I wonder if we can take those snapshots of Snape's memory as representative of his whole childhood. Particularly in the case of the second memory - what teenager hasn't sat moped in their room, miserable with boredom and perhaps a little angry about their lot in life?

I'd agree, except that those two memories seemed to be right on the surface of Snape's mind, as it were -- the first things Harry saw when he looked there -- which to me suggests that they were characteristic or representative of Snape's childhood and adolescence as a whole.

[straussmonster.livejournal.com]

I don't think Lily had genuinely loathed James, although she certainly did defend Snape:

MA: How did they get together? She hated James, from what we’ve seen.

JKR: Did she really? You're a woman, you know what I'm saying. [Laughter.]

[rj-anderson.livejournal.com]

Well, I agree with JKR that Lily probably did find James attractive in spite of herself, and that they had kind of a Leia/Han bickering-leads-to-attraction thing going. However, it is pretty clear from what Lily says to James in the Pensieve scene that she really did find his attitude irritating and his bullying morally distasteful at that point. When Harry asks Remus and Sirius about the incident later, they look sheepish and then say something to the effect that James did change later on, and stopped "hexing people just for the fun of it", at which point Lily started to look at him more favorably. But she didn't want to give him the time of day -- handsome and roguishly charming, or not -- until then, it seems.

[straussmonster.livejournal.com]

And she's trying very hard not to smile, too.

I think it's important to her character that she sticks up for what's right, but it's really possible to overstate the depth of her loathing.

[innerslytherin]

OMG. I love you even more than I already did. *grins* Of course, I'm a Severus/Remus fan, and I often think House/Wilson would work in much the same way Severus/Remus would. *giggles* Of course, with House, I actually like House/Cameron, too.

Yes, and now that I've impressed you with my ability to think deep thoughts, I'm going to wander back to my RPG. *grins*

One (rather unrelated) thing ...

[(Anonymous)]

Hi RJA,

I never was the biggest fan of Snape/Lily either, since it seemed like a cliche wrapped triteness and tied off with a pretty pink bow. But given what JKR has hinted of Lily, and what she's revealed of Snape, it could turn out rather darker than even the most angsty shippers wrote ...

My unrelated thing was this: don't victims of the AK curse usually die with their eyes blank, staring ... wide open? I remember Cedric as being that way. Is there any other canon evidence for it?

Just because, as we see on p. 608 of HBP, Dumbledore's eyes are closed, and he looks so peaceful as to be, apparently, sleeping.

Hmm. Loophole? Subtle hint? Anyone? Bueller?

Re: One (rather unrelated) thing ...

[(Anonymous)]

Gah - Subtilior posting, BTW. *rolls eyes at own stupidity*

Re: One (rather unrelated) thing ...

[rj-anderson.livejournal.com]

Oooooh. I think you're right about this. Of course, the fact that their eyes are wide open is probably basically attributable to the fact that they weren't expecting to get AK'd and that it kills them so fast it takes them totally by surprise. But even if this is true, the fact that Dumbledore's eyes were closed indicates that the AK did not take him by surprise; that he was expecting it. In which case, again, that's a strong argument for the "Snape and Dumbledore planned this all along" idea.

Re: One (rather unrelated) thing ...

[(Anonymous)]

And when has anyone been blasted into the air when AK'd.

Cedric certainly was not, so why did DD go flying into the air and over the battlements when b4 Harry had said that DD was slippng futrther and further down.

And lets face it, if DD really needed Snape then why didnt he send his Patronas for him. Tonks sent her paronas early on from outside the school, so DD could have snet his when they arrived at Hogsmeade. her certainly had the strength to lift the protections when he was flying to te castle, and he had the strength to Freeze harry.

Just a few more incponsistencies in the story IMO

As for Snape / Lily, I always thought there was more to the reason DD gave to Harry for Snape turning away from LV. he didnt lie, but he did not reveal everything about the reason.

Mara

Re: One (rather unrelated) thing ...

[rj-anderson.livejournal.com]

Yes, you're right -- and well spotted, as JKR would say. We've seen Cedric and Sirius AK'd, and in both cases all that happened was that they suddenly stopped moving and fell backward, dead. I thought that was odd about Dumbledore too -- one minute it seems he's nearly sitting below the battlements, the next minute he's flying off the top of the tower? Maybe JKR was going for dramatic effect, but it did seem inconsistent.

I don't know about the Patronus thing... it may have been that DD didn't send his Patronus to summon Snape because he knew Snape might have been with some Death Eaters at the time and didn't want to blow (or at least call into question) Snape's cover.

Re: One (rather unrelated) thing ...

[(Anonymous)]

S. again. I tend to second-guess myself, so here I go w/ a vengeance ... It could very well be that DD just wasn't as surprised as Cedric was ... And was Sirius actually AK'd? I thought Bellatrix sent a "red jet of light" into his chest.

Which brings me back to hoping there's something to this being a fake sort of AK. Cause all we've seen before is a "flash" of green light, not a jet, or any other sort of visible, straight-line curse. Just a big "kaboom" and it's over. Hmmm.

Also, when Slughorn was cut off right after saying that the wizard "encases" the bit of torn soul - I can't help but think that's significant. Encase it in an object? Or maybe in a potion, or even a spell, perhaps? I just think the vivid green of the potion DD drank in the cave was liquid AK, or something.

"Or something." I am exceptionally articulate these days ... *eye-roll*

Re: One (rather unrelated) thing ...

[(Anonymous)]

And when Cedric was AK'd his eyes remained wide open - Harry saw his grey eyes wide open.

With DD, when they saw the body at the base of the tower, his eyes were shut.

Just another inconsistancy, or is it !

Mara

BOSCO!!

[princesasunrise.livejournal.com]

Hey! It's Bosco from The Hizzy! Great essay!

Re: BOSCO!!

[rj-anderson.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

[pbristow.livejournal.com]

[READS "UP FRONT" POST, INCLUDING FINAL LINE]

[CLICKS THROUGH THE CUT-TAG]

[READS ENTIRE POST INCLUDING FINAL LINE:]
"And now that I have impressed you all with my maturity, I shall wander off and work some more on my fic."

Oh! Oh oh oh, *GREAT* switcheroo! =:o>

[rj-anderson.livejournal.com]

*grins* Glad you got a kick out of it!

[twoflower2.livejournal.com]

Great essay, RJA.

A question to go along with Dumbledore death mysteries: why, when Harry finds him under the tower, his eyeglasses are still on his nose? It would be possible only if he gently floated to the ground, face up. I read your Horcrux essay upon the first reading of HBP and was thoroughly convinced :), but after rereading the book I noticed all these little details and am now wondering if DD's death might not be a great big ruse. The whole situation on the top of the tower made me think about Pettigrew killing Muggles in front of many eyewitnesses and those eyewitnesses holding Sirius responsible! Now, I am not saying that somebody else, not Snape, attacked Dumbledore, just that in the Wizarding World, a play of wandless magic, wordless spells, spells that are uttered but may not work etc. can create a situation when things are not what they seem. Also, during the funeral Hagrid brings in his arms "what seems to be Dumbledore's body". What does that mean? That he brings a body-like object that onlookers assume is Dumbledore's body?
But think how Snape's situation now is equal to that of Sirius's a few years earlier! A despised traitor and fugitive! An intended parallel?

[(Anonymous)]

Does anyone have any idea what those 2 other memories could be that Snape removed from his mind into the Penseive b4 teaching Harry Occlumency ?

If the first one was because what happened between himself and Lily, i.e. calling her a Mudblood and losing her friendship, then what could the other 2 be.

I wonder if one is the memory of Lily being killed, with Snape being thare that fateful night.


Mara

[(Anonymous)]

Ok, comments JKR said on Book 7 some time ago :

One of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to fall in love.

JKR: (JKR laughs) Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? That’s a very horrible idea.
There’s an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape
JKR: He, um, there’s so much I wish I could say to you, and I can’t because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I’m slightly stunned that you’ve said that and you’ll find out why I’m so stunned if you read Book 7. That’s all I’m going to say.


Hi, I really like the books and we already learned a lot about Harry’s father and I was wondering ‘Are we going to learn a lot about his mother?’

JKR: Yeah, you will. It’s ---- yet again ---- you won’t find out ---- OK, in Book 3 you’re absolutely right. You find out a lot about Harry’s father. Now the important thing about Harry’s mother, the really, really significant thing, you’re going to find out in 2 parts. You’ll find out a lot more about her in Book 5, or you’ll find out something very significant about her in Book 5, then you’ll find out something incredibly important about her in Book 7. But I can’t tell you what those things are so I’m sorry, but yes, you will find out more about her because both of them are very important in what Harry ends up having to do.

ES: This is one of my burning questions since the third book - why did Voldemort offer Lily so many chances to live? Would he actually have let her live?
JKR: Mmhm.
ES: Why?
JKR: [silence] Can't tell you. But he did offer, you're absolutely right. Don't you want to ask me why James's death didn't protect Lily and Harry? There’s your answer, you've just answered your own question, because she could have lived and chose to die. James was going to be killed anyway. Do you see what I mean? I’m not saying James wasn't ready to; he died trying to protect his family but he was going to be murdered anyway. He had no - he wasn't given a choice, so he rushed into it in a kind of animal way, I think there are distinctions in courage. James was immensely brave. But the caliber of Lily's bravery was, I think in this instance, higher because she could have saved herself. Now any mother, any normal mother would have done what Lily did. So in that sense her courage too was of an animal quality but she was given time to choose. James wasn't. It's like an intruder entering your house, isn't it? You would instinctively rush them. But if in cold blood you were told, "Get out of the way," you know, what would you do? I mean, I don't think any mother would stand aside from their child. But does that answer it? She did very consciously lay down her life. She had a clear choice -
ES: And James didn't.
JKR: Did he clearly die to try and protect Harry specifically given a clear choice? No. It's a subtle distinction and there's slightly more to it than that but that's most of the answer.
MA: Did she know anything about the possible effect of standing in front of Harry?
JKR: No - because as I've tried to make clear in the series, it never happened before. No one ever survived before. And no one, therefore, knew that could happen.
MA: So no one - Voldemort or anyone using Avada Kedavra - ever gave someone a choice and then they took that option [to die] -
JKR: They may have been given a choice, but not in that particular way.



So, we know that Lily gave her life to save Harry. That is what Harry discovered in book 5.

So what is other the really important thing that
Lily did that harry has to do at the end ?

Why did LV give her the chance to live ? That was totallly out of character from what we know about him. So was it because one of his DE's begged him to spare Lily's life, would that persuade him to spare her. or was there some other reason ?

It all seems to come back round to Lily and Snape being involved

Mara