A thought about Snape and Neville...

[rj_anderson]

Inspired by ajhalluk's latest (and deliciously snarky) post about fandom cliches that need to be retired, stat. One of these was the idea that Snape is bullying Neville out of some kind of "tough love", and it got me thinking about why Snape might resent Neville so particularly. Which led to an intriguing new idea:

When Trelawney first made her prophecy about the child who would be Voldemort's downfall, did Dumbledore and Snape have a disagreement as to which child it would be -- Dumbledore's preference being Harry and Snape's being Neville? Is part of Snape's resentment of Neville due to Neville's having apparently "let him down" in that respect?

If so, the way Snape treats Neville might be a combination of trying to force Neville into displaying some magical ability (I wouldn't call it "tough love", since no tender feelings are involved on Snape's part -- he's merely trying to prove he wasn't completely wrong about Neville's potential), and sheer frustration with Neville's spectacular (and often hazardous) incompetence in his class.

It probably doesn't help that McGonagall seems to find Neville equally frustrating to deal with (and she's generally considered a good teacher both in and out of canon, so it's not just Snape's personal teaching method that's at fault) -- and has even been known to take it out on him in public (see GoF, when she takes him to task for his inability to perform a simple Switching Spell, and basically tells him he's a disgrace to the whole school). She and Snape probably gripe about him to each other in the staff room, which only reinforces their respective perceptions of him as an embarrassment and a failure.

I suspect, however, that Neville is going to display a bit more gumption -- even and perhaps especially to Snape -- in Book 6. And I'm really, really looking forward to it. *rubs hands together*

P.S. Is it wrong of me to secretly hope that in Book 7 we find out that Neville was really the child of prophecy and the hero of the whole story after all? I mean, even aside from all the dreadfully mixed feelings this would be sure to cause in Snape, I think it would be way too cool. But I doubt JKR's going to do that...

P.P.S. I've just checked to confirm this -- it's after Dumbledore awards points for courage to Neville in PS/SS that we see Snape shaking McGonagall's hand with a "horrible forced smile". If he's been clinging to the hope that Neville might yet display some sign of child-of-prophecy potential and trump Harry in that respect, that smile might not have been quite as wholly artificial as Harry thinks...

Comments

[therealmarajade.livejournal.com]

Interesting idea about Snape...I haven't thought about this possibility on his part.

However, I HAVE thought about the possibility of we finding out in the end that the real hero is Neville. My friends think I'm crazy for it though. I'm happy someone else thinks the same thing. :)

Debora

[drmm.livejournal.com]

I'm sure that Neville will have a huge role to play in the ending. JKR made such a point of mentioning that it could have been Neville that he has to play a role somewhere.

However, as Dumbledore says, Harry is the one mentioned ... He's the one Voldemort marked as an equal.

[cssp.livejournal.com]

that's very interesting. i'm excited to see what jk has in store for neville. she always likes to make was seems to be impossible happen.

Hope is never wrong.

[necessaryspace.livejournal.com]

I had the same thought as soon as Dumbledore told Harry there were two candidates for the Prophecy: I wondered "Maybe Neville turns out to be the real one in Book Seven after all."

I actually hope JKR does that.

Very interesting...

[hms-yowling.livejournal.com]

I'm been wondering for a while if Neville's "protection" is truly what the overzealous Auror had in mind when s/he overdid it with the Obliviate spell post-torture of the Longbottoms. (We don't know who that Auror is, do we?)

My conspiracy-minded mind is thinking... Could Neville have seen something or someone that he wasn't supposed? If so, what, or who? And if Neville did see something, how would Snape know? Is Snape afraid of the information coming out, and hates Neville as a result? Or does Snape know that memory charms can be overcome by extreme rage or fear or something and he's trying to provoke Neville to that point?

Unfortunately, the latter seems unlikely (i.e, a real stretch), since if Snape has info. he wants known, he could go to Dumbledore and tell him. But if he tried and no one believe him? Or if it's something that Snape only suspects?

My other thought is that perhaps it wasn't an Auror that hit Neville with the Obliviate spell, it was Snape, who did it to save Neville's life. And now he hates himself for causing Neville seemingly irreparable damage. Having to teach both James' son (aka Harry the wonder boy) and Neville in the same year and in the same class has made Snape, uh, more than usually crotchety. And if Snape believed that Neville was the one who was truly meant to take Voldemort down, and that he had been the one to screw that up royally with his misplaced kindness...

Oh, what a lovely (if improbable) recipe for angst.

In none of these scenarios does Snape come off very well, but I'd rather it be that there's something that Snape wants Neville to remember and he's incredibly frustrated that he can't reach in and pry it out of the boy's brain. (Yes, I like my Snape redeemed, if you please.)

Finally, have you read hackthis's Accidentally On Purpose (http://www.livejournal.com/users/hackthis/124014.html#cutid1)? It made me seriously consider that Harry may have been the one prophesied to kill Voldemort, but that Neville breaking the prophecy crystal was significant of something other than Neville's clumsiness.

Re: Very interesting...

[dr-c.livejournal.com]

On Neville's memory problems: We know nothing definite about who did it-- indeed, we've never actually been informed that he was Obliviated at all, it just seems like an obvious enough conclusion that we all tend to assume it (and I agree that it's probably right).

But we do know that Neville's memories contained damaging information about the family of a high-ranking Ministry official; and we also know that that particular Ministry official was not above blasting someone's memory into Oblivion for the sake of his and his family's reputation. So I continue to favor the theory that Neville's memory met the same fate as Bertha's, and by the same hand.

On Snape's problems with Neville: We know that Frank Longbottom is a former Auror (indeed, that both of Neville's parents were in the original OotP), and that "Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater." The simplest explanation seemed to be that Snape likely had some conflict with the previous generation of Longbottom which he's now carrying over to (so-called) "Idiot Boy" Neville.

(Although, I must say... after all the Snape/Lily fics that have been written... wouldn't it be funny if Snape had actually had a secret crush on Alice???) :D

Can you refresh my memory?

[hms-yowling.livejournal.com]

I only remember the first 4 books in broad strokes -- don't remember the details. Where can I find the info. about Neville? And (this is embarassing) who is Bertha? Is she a Crouch?

And yes, I've been reading about Neville being Obliviated (in fanfic) for so long that it's become canon, in my head.

Such are the perils of fanon.

Also, I agree that Snape is probably just a bastard: I'm more speculating from the "taking liberties with canon for creating fanfic purposes" rather than, necessarily, musing about where canon will take us. Although I definitely would be all for canon revelations about Snape -- though I'd prefer he didn't harbor a doomed tendre for either Lily or Alice. Give the poor man someone able to reciprocate his affections (assuming, of course, that he's capable of expressing them). ;-)

Re: Very interesting...

[rj-anderson.livejournal.com]

Hee -- I like that. What Alice to-be Longbottom were with Lily the day MWPP and young Severus followed the girls down to the lake after their exam? And it was Alice that Snape was really there for, so he could sneak glances at her over the top of his exam paper?

I can't see any other reason for him to want to get that dangerously close to MWPP, myself...

Re: Very interesting...

[ex-ajhalluk585.livejournal.com]

But we do know that Neville's memories contained damaging information about the family of a high-ranking Ministry official; and we also know that that particular Ministry official was not above blasting someone's memory into Oblivion for the sake of his and his family's reputation. So I continue to favor the theory that Neville's memory met the same fate as Bertha's, and by the same hand.

That is a very sound point indeed. Especially since other memory charms (apart from the one which backfires on Lockhart - and he was trying to produce insanity in Ron and Harry) are selective, and the only other one we know to have been so devastating was Jorkins

[theatresm.livejournal.com]

The Inner Conspiracy Theorist loves all these ideas. The Pragmatist, however, says "Oh, come one. Snape simply can't stand Longbottom's massive incompetence, no matter what the cause."

As you've pointed out elsewhere, the boo-boos Neville makes in Potions class are not harmless -- they're downright dangerous at times. That would be enough to drive any teacher to the point of hysteria.

I wonder how Neville might get his chance to stand up to Snape, though -- aren't the Fifths "culled" at year end, and only the best continue with Snape into Sixth and Seventh years? I somehow doubt Neville and Harry will make the cut -- Ron's probably questionable too, although Hermione's a foregone conclusion.

Oh, heck

[hms-yowling.livejournal.com]

Self-referential behavior alert, but... hey. < g > I'm going to just link to a post I made about this very subject (I firmly believe Neville will pass potions).

5th year OWL results (http://www.livejournal.com/users/hms_yowling/2229.html)

[ex-ajhalluk585.livejournal.com]

There is no reason why Neville shouldn't pass a creditable OWL in Potions and not do it for NEWTS - that would be normal UK practice.

[theatresm.livejournal.com]

Snape in OotP: 'Moronic though some of this class undoubtedly are, I expect you to scrape an "Acceptable" in your OWL, or suffer my . . . displeasure.'

His gaze lingered this time on Neville, who gulped.

'After this year, of course, many of you will cease studying with me,' Snape went on. 'I take only the very best into my NEWT Potions class, which means that some of us will certainly be saying goodbye.'

His eyes rested on Harry and his lip curled. Harry glared back, feeling a grim pleasure at the idea that he would be able to give up Potions after fifth year.

'But we have another year to go before that happy moment of farewell,' said Snape softly, 'so, whether or not you are intending to attempt NEWT, I advise all of you to concentrate your efforts upon maintaining the high pass level I have come to expect from my OWL students.'

(My underlining.) This seems to indicate to me that Snape may have some discretion in the choice of those he accepts into advanced Potions, and/or that Neville may choose not to attempt the NEWT, even if he manages to pass the OWL. It's quite true that Neville's a tough little bugger, and he may forge ahead despite five years of verbal abuse/Snape's abrasive teaching (depending on ones' POV, of course....)

[lesserstorm.livejournal.com]

I suspect this will depend both on Neville's ambitions for after Hogwarts and on whether JKR, as dea ex machina, needs to manipulate the requirements so Neville is still in the potions class.

In the same way that Harry conveniently (for plot purposes) needs a potions NEWT to become an auror, I would imagine that needing potions in order to follow his chosen career is the only thing that could possibly persuade Neville to stay in potions. But as the only thing we know Neville is good at is herbology, it could be possible.

[theatresm.livejournal.com]

Ah, yes, the infamous/beloved DEM. I second the sentiment -- it's the only good reason I can think of either.

I wonder, though, how much overlap there is between the two subjects -- by that I mean, I can see a Potions brewer needing to have a decent grasp of Herbology to some extent (knowing the properties of various plants, potential interactions, etc), whereas Herbology is more like Agriculture in my mind -- herbologists need to know how to successfully cultivate the plants, but don't necessarily need to know precisely how each plant is used in specific potions. I suppose we'll find out sooner or later, given whatever Neville chooses.

[angie-v12.livejournal.com]

Snape does have discretion over those he accepts. Professor McGonagall says in "Careers Advice" that Snape "absolutely refuses to take students who get anything other than 'Outstanding' in their OWLs".

Theories about Snape & Neville

[lesserstorm.livejournal.com]

Since GoF, I've always gone with the theory that Snape's reaction to Neville has at leasts much to do with Neville's parents as his reaction to Harry has to do with James.

Snape is an ex-deatheater, Frank was an auror and Alice was also one of the Order of the Phoenix. That in itself is enough to mean they probably have past history.

But then you look at Snape's old school friends - who he betrayed - Wilkes and Rosier were killed by aurors. (Frank may even have been involved, it may have been on Snape's information.) And the Lestranges (who by this time had talked themselves out of Azkaban on a technicality) were the ones who tortured Alice and Frank and drove them permanently insane.

That is surely enough for Snape to have all sorts of messy, complicated, ambiguous feelings towards the elder Longbottoms and we already know from Harry that Snape is perfectly ready to take out unresolved feelings towards an eleven year-old's parents out on said eleven year old, regardless of competence or otherwise in class.

But the prophecy could certainly give another layer of complication to Snape's feelings. And if Snape had thought it referred to Neville, then it wouldn't matter too much even if he later became completely convinced Albus was right. He would hate having ben wrong, especially if he was wrong publicly, and that would seem to him to be reason enough to take his anger out on both Harry and Neville.

P.S. Is it wrong of me to secretly hope that in Book 7 we find out that Neville was really the child of prophecy and the hero of the whole story after all?

Not wanting to self plug too much, but for my own take on what that prophecy really meant check out The Interpretation of Prophecy (http://www.thedarkarts.org/authors/storm/IP.html). It's not what I think will actually happen in book 7, but it's perfectly canon-compliant.

Re: Theories about Snape & Neville

[rj-anderson.livejournal.com]

*is amused by fic* Very clever. I especially loved this bit:

Harry considered asking how a giant sea monster could have attacked hikers in a country with no coastline, but decided it was not worth the effort.

Perfect. And the idea of Voldemort being taken out that way... so gloriously unromantic, it's almost sublime. :)

Re: Theories about Snape & Neville

[lesserstorm.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

But of course I can't throw the theory rouund in discussions without completely spoling the story.

[chresimos.livejournal.com]

Ah, I too think that Snape(and McGonagall) are just frustrated at his incompetence, both being intelligent and adept persons themselves. Therefore Neville gets to be the Symbol of the educational system unfairly picking on people and only making the problem worse.

But I like these theories! The Snape grudge against the Longbottoms, the Snape/Alice (just when you think no ship will surprise you).

I'm not quite sure anymore if this is canon - but wasn't Snape being mean to Harry based on the idea that he's a mini-James an attempt to prevent Harry from becoming James? If so, then his abuse of Neville could be something like that - knowing how the Longbottoms were so wonderful, and were destroyed, he realizes there's no hope for Neville if he can't learn to do things properly? Not a tough-love thing, exactly, but the general distaste for incompetence thing...perhaps.

As for the prophecy, yes! While I read it my thoughts were: "Oh...this is the prophecy? THIS? Anti-climax! Oh dear...NEVILLE! YES! Harry can go sit in a corner and ruminate over how the world's abused him, and Neville will save the day! Whee!"

Erm...but of course she won't do that. However, I'm sure someone's writing the fic version...right...now...

(by the way, I've friended you, if you don't mind :) )

[rj-anderson.livejournal.com]

I'm not quite sure anymore if this is canon - but wasn't Snape being mean to Harry based on the idea that he's a mini-James an attempt to prevent Harry from becoming James?

Heh, that's not canon, that's just what Snape tells Maud in PR ch. 5. Or did in the original version, anyway -- I modified it a bit in the rewrite. There still might be a slight element of that in Snape's treatment of Harry -- wanting to beat James out of him, as it were -- but I no longer think of it as Snape's primary motivation.

I do think that there's something in the idea that Snape is trying to toughen Neville up, though. Not because he has a sentimental attachment for Neville, but because he believes it's a waste of time coddling these children if they're only going to get themselves killed...

[chresimos.livejournal.com]

that's just what Snape tells Maud in PR ch. 5

Bwah! It must have been convincing. *beats self on head*

I'm sure there's something in canon somewhere, but I am far too lazy to look it up. :)

[angie-v12.livejournal.com]

One idea I had was that Snape found out Bellatrix & Co. were going after the Longbottoms and tried to warn them, only they didn't believe him. It's very likely most of the original Order weren't aware that Snape was their spy: he wasn't in the picture that Moody showed Harry and Wormtail never exposed him to Voldemort.

So Frank dismissed Snape very rudely ('Pull the other one, Snivelly, it's got bells on') and/or had him arrested for threatening an Auror. By the time Dumbledore turned up to sort things out, it was too late. Snape resents Neville and feels no sympathy for him because he believes Neville's parents brought what happened to them on themselves.

[rj-anderson.livejournal.com]

My idea has always been that Snape had, however grudgingly, admired the Longbottoms' skill and courage; and therefore despises Neville all the more for being a disgrace to his parents' memory, as it were. But as with Snape's opinion of Harry, I think there are a whole bunch of emotions mixed up in there, and what you've said could very easily be true as well.

[themorningstarr.livejournal.com]

Hi, this is The Morning Starr from SQWS2. I wanted to know if it was okay to friend you here.

Thanks!

Oh... and great essay, by the way.

[rj-anderson.livejournal.com]

Sure is! And thanks!