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rj_andersonI've mentioned some of these before, but...
Cock Robin - brilliant, obscure 80's pop duo. Peter Kingsbery has a gorgeous voice. Anna LaCazio had a great whine.
Wild Swans (the band) - another obscure 80's band. Lilting, gorgeous melodies. The title of my Alias fic Whirlpool Heart was taken from a song by the Swans. Originally this didn't seem to be a unique interest, but then I realized that the other people listing "Wild Swans" were referring to the book by ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
pegkerr, so I added the qualifier and now it's unique. Still, somebody else must like these guys, I'm sure -- heidi8?
New Testament churches - that is, local congregations that attempt to organize and govern themselves in the same way the first-century Christians did. They're much rarer than you might think, even in otherwise conservative circles -- how many evangelical churches do you know that have a group of teaching elders instead of a single pastor, for instance, or where those in full-time ministry are supported by freewill gifts (without appeals or fundraising) instead of being salaried? What about each congregation being autonomous and responsible to Christ alone, instead of being part of a denomination or otherwise controlled from the outside? Those are just a few examples of NT principles that have been pushed aside or forgotten in many instances -- but I think they're important ones, so this is an interest of mine.
Saffron cake (recipe here) - I can't be the only person on LiveJournal who likes the stuff, surely? I'm sure I'm not the only LJ user of Cornish descent...
pegkerr, so I added the qualifier and now it's unique. Still, somebody else must like these guys, I'm sure -- heidi8?
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Date: 2003-07-09 08:11 am (UTC)you might find the story of their rebellion against the Anglican church interesting ...
see here: Free Church Internet Library (http://www.freechurch.org/main.html) It's courtesy of them that there are no Sunday ferries to the Hebridean Islands of Lewis and Harris.
another LJ user who is a member of a non-denominational congregation is
AS for Saffron cake: I can't be interested in something I don't have a recipe for! *pouts*
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Date: 2003-07-09 12:07 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-07-12 01:39 pm (UTC)To quote the Old Testament, an eye for an eye ... :P
New Testament Church
Date: 2003-07-09 02:03 pm (UTC)You might be surprised if you looked historically, at how the NT church worshipped. Might I recommend the book The Orthodox Church by Callistos Ware (earlier versions have the name Timothy Ware, same book, same author, but when he became a bishop, his name was changed.)
Kim
kimk@mail.cannet . com (take the spaces out)
PS as to saffron cake, can one afford enough saffron to make cake with it?
Re: New Testament Church
Date: 2003-07-09 04:42 pm (UTC)I know there are many churches which claim a long historical tradition behind them, but that really doesn't carry any weight with me unless their doctrines and practices are clearly found in Scripture. Even being able to date one's practices back to the first century doesn't make a church truly Biblical -- after all, Paul and the other apostles were constantly warning the first-century churches about false teachers and doctrines, so there were all kinds of errors and misconceptions floating about even then...
On a less serious note, you don't need a crazy amount of saffron to make Saffron Cake -- my mother usually spends about $20 to get enough saffron for four to six loaves, I think. It isn't cheap, but it isn't exorbitant either...
Re: New Testament Church
Date: 2003-07-09 07:08 pm (UTC)Could you give me an example of how you think the NT church is different from what you think the Orthodox Church is?
Yes, there were (and continue to be) many heresies in the heterodox Christian church. I've run into "good protestants" who don't believe in the dual natures of Christ, the Virgin Birth, or even His actual physical ressurection from the dead. I would point out, however, that the Orthodox Church established, through the power of the Holy Spirit, was we know to be truth and what is heresy.
I know that most Protestants, from lack of information, do not understand Orthodoxy. And many Orthodox, whether for reasons based on ethnicity or outright fear of persecution, don't particularly do an adept job at presenting the history of the Body of Christ which Protestants tend to skip. My college history of the Church class went from the Apostles to St. Augustine of Hippo to Martin Luther in one class. As if the Eucumenical Councils, including those that defined the basics of the faith, never took place. Those basics are now how we judge if a "church" is truly Christian - the Trinity, the Holy Spirit as God, Christ's dual natures and virgin birth, His physical ressurection and bodily ascension into Heaven.
Kim
Re: New Testament Church
Date: 2003-07-09 07:51 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-07-09 04:43 pm (UTC)In my observation, the view that "all NT church practices are normative" causes several difficulties. One is that, if we don't speak in tongues, it forces us into lots of hermeneutical gyrations to explain why that "doesn't count." Similarly, it allows us to get far too caught up in conflicts over minutiae like (for example) whether the Lord's supper was just a token bit of bread and wine, or a full meal (I've never known a church to practice this, but they seem to have done it thus in early Acts, and also in Corinth). But more importantly, it undermines the unity of the universal Church by leading us into the trap of taking an "us vs. them" view of other Bible-believing churches (thus making us at least as sectarian as "denominational" churches, and perhaps more so); and it also misplaces our priorities in leading us to exalt church order above the work of evangelism, shepherding, and teaching.
I believe unapologetically in New Testament principles (or, more simply, in obedience to the New Testament) as a goal for Christian churches-- but not as a point of separation from other churches who believe the same gospel that we believe.
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Date: 2003-07-09 06:34 pm (UTC)I do believe that any local church would benefit from looking more closely at the way the early church operated, and being open to modifying its traditional practices if those traditions are not in line with the pattern we have in the NT. And the more a church does seek to understand and adhere to a purely Biblical standard the more interested I am in it. That was really what I meant by my original statement.
Far from having an "us vs. them" view, I don't think even the assemblies with which you and I are familiar always come as close to the pattern as they think they do -- in fact I think some of our long-standing and cherished traditions are really not Biblical at all and we would be better to change them. And I know full well that there are other types of congregations which actually come closer to the Biblical pattern in certain ways and in certain areas.
I am not sure I follow your argument about speaking in tongues. Even in the first century, Paul did not command everyone to speak in tongues or expect that they would; he only laid down principles for the conduct of those who did have that particular spiritual gift. Where the gift is not present, there is surely no reason to become agitated about how to regulate it.
And re the "love feast" -- I've never heard of this being a point of conflict either. Nor have I ever heard the term "Lord's Supper" applied to anything other than the simple taking of bread and wine. The act of breaking bread in remembrance of Christ is repeatedly commanded and exemplified in the NT; the eating of a full meal is not commanded and only obliquely exemplified. I think it would be lovely, and very likely beneficial to any fellowship, if the believers did gather for a communal meal; but I would disagree with anyone who asserted that such a practice was as vital and indispensible as the Lord's Supper.
I am not at all interested in exalting church order above the work of evangelism, shepherding, and teaching; but I do think that sometimes our tendency to follow human traditions, ideas and conventions rather than the simple Scriptural pattern can create unnecessary obstacles and hardships to our carrying out that work.
Just to give one example, I would never say it is wicked for a congregation to set aside one Sunday meeting for a "gospel meeting", but I don't see that practice exemplified anywhere in Scripture, I don't believe it is an effective form of evangelism, and I believe it actually limits many people's understanding of what the gospel is by confining it to the "get-saved message". Plus, having that meeting takes away time that might be better used in edifying the believers and equipping them to go out and preach the gospel as they have been commanded to do. It also amazes me how many earnest and sincere Christians seem to think that by supporting such a "gospel meeting" they are somehow doing their part in evangelism, even if there are no unbelievers present (which is, in fact, usually the case). But if anyone dares to question this practice -- whoa, nelly. "He doesn't believe in preaching the gospel!" (Insert tutting and sad shaking of heads here.)
This is what I really mean when I say I'd like to see more New Testament churches. Not churches that have "gospel meetings", but churches whose members preach the gospel; not churches where the women wear head coverings, but where there is a willing and heartfelt submission to God's order; not churches that pride themselves on following New Testament principles, but churches that really do.
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Date: 2003-07-09 06:36 pm (UTC)