I don't normally read LiveJournal, but...

[rj_anderson]

I received a piece of feedback this morning beginning with the words: I don't read [this particular subgenre] in fanfiction, I really don't, and then going on to repeat the same sentiment in a different way, before adding some words of slightly bemused, I-still-can't-believe-I-enjoyed-this praise.

Now, I know that some fanfic authors resent this type of approach. I've seen people become quite offended and indignant about feedback of this nature, because what they see in the feedback isn't so much your story is outstandingly good as your subgenre sucks. And if you're already feeling that your subgenre is maligned and misunderstood, you're not going to like the reminder that a lot of people who might otherwise have enjoyed your stories and given you great feedback will never even read them, because they are Of That Kind.

Well, I've written in a number of not-so-well-regarded subgenres. And yeah, it does get on my nerves at times that some people just dismiss my work out of prejudice, sight unseen, because of the ship or the presence of an OC or the fact that I'm archived on a site they hate or whatever. I also feel badly for other authors in the same subgenre whose work is superb, not at all cliched, and deserves wider attention.

Still, when I get a piece of feedback that says I don't usually like X at all, but..., I really can't take it as an insult. Quite the opposite, in fact -- I consider it a triumph.

Because if one person who doesn't normally read X got so far as to at least try my fic, and if they actually enjoyed it (however much that surprised them), then not only does that tell me my fic appeals to a wider and more critical audience than I'd feared, but there's always the chance that this person will be a little more open to giving other fics of the same kind a chance next time around, and perhaps even encourage their friends to do likewise.

In any case, I have to ask myself, what point is the feedbacker really trying to make? Do they mean their remarks to be in any way insulting or belittling of my tastes or my abilities as a writer? As far as I can see, that's not their intention at all -- in fact they're trying to offer what is, in their view, a particularly high compliment. I had some strong prejudices against this subgenre, but I enjoyed your writing so much that I forgot those prejudices. I wish I knew of more stories like yours. That sure doesn't sound like an insult to me.

Anyway, I don't know if the person who sent that particular bit of feedback is on my flist or not, but if you are, thank you again, very much indeed. As I said in e-mail, I'm touched and I'm honoured.

Comments

[yahtzee63.livejournal.com]

I *do* sometimes get offended by this kind of FB, though I certainly don't always. It all comes down to what you said:

what point is the feedbacker really trying to make? Do they mean their remarks to be in any way insulting or belittling of my tastes or my abilities as a writer?

If somebody says simply, "I don't usually read subgenre x, but I read this and I loved it," then I am well-content and happy. If, OTOH, somebody sends a feedback letter that spends three paragraphs talking about why subgenre x/your central character/your pairing of choice/etc. sucks and is ridiculous, then tosses in a line about the story, you have to wonder why this person sent the e-mail.

I have, in the past, received feedback that said, "Couple X makes me want to vomit, but I could get through this." That's verbatim, except for the actual names of the couple. Feedback like that I can live without, and I don't know what person on earth would think this is a good comment to send to anybody.

It's all a matter of tone and of the writer's intent. I'm sure that it is possible to be too sensitive to this stuff -- I know that at times I have been -- but I have definitely been on the receiving end of "feedback" that was just character or show-bashing in thin disguise. IMHO, the difference is usually clear.

[marinarusalka.livejournal.com]

Heh. Practically every piece of feedback I received during my time in BtVS fandom began with some variation of "I normally hate Riley, but..." Like Yahtzee, I did occasionally get annoyed by what appeared to be character-bashing rants disguised as feedback -- really, the fact that I wrote a novel-length fic centering on a sympathetic portrayal of a character should be a pretty good tip-off that I like the guy and don't want to read a ten-paragraph e-mail about how much he sucks -- but overall, I took the comments in the complimentary spirit in which they were intended.

And because my mind makes strange connections, I have to say that feedback like that always makes me think of Darcy's first proposal to Elizabeth in Pride and Prejudice, and then I giggle madly.

[hedda62.livejournal.com]

*giggling madly as well* That's a beautiful analogy!

[yahtzee63.livejournal.com]

And because my mind makes strange connections, I have to say that feedback like that always makes me think of Darcy's first proposal to Elizabeth in Pride and Prejudice, and then I giggle madly.

That's really PERFECT.

And just to be clear -- I think the proportion of "well-meaning" comments of this type to "bashing" comments of this type is about 50 to 1. That 1 can be mightily annoying or downright mean, but I have worked hard not to let the natural response to that shade my reactions to the other 50.

[rj-anderson.livejournal.com]

Darcy's first proposal to Elizabeth

Oh, that's splendid. Really sublime. Hee!

Now I'm never going to see another feedback of that type without giggling myself.

[mafdet.livejournal.com]

I have to say that feedback like that always makes me think of Darcy's first proposal to Elizabeth in Pride and Prejudice

LOL - I love this analogy. I'll call such reviews "Darcy proposals" from now on...

And yes, it's the tone and intent of the feedback which counts. It's flattering to have someone say that you're such a good writer that they read a story they normally wouldn't, but if the feedback is couched largely in character bashing or genre bashing terms it's annoying. "I usually avoid stories with OC's, but I enjoyed your story and your OC. Well done!" versus "OC's suck donkey balls but yours is the exception."

All in all, I would take such a review as a compliment to my writing skills.

[marinarusalka.livejournal.com]

I'll call such reviews "Darcy proposals" from now on...

I think it would make a very handy term. Darcy proposals, or Darcys for short. Then we could say things like, "That Snape/OFC romance I posted to ff.net last week has gotten me fifteen flames and ten Darcys."

[chrisleeoctaves.livejournal.com]

I personally agree that fb from someone who states that they don't normally read your sub-genre (or pairing) is high praise indeed. I have both sent and received similar feedback. As we all know, I write predominantly B/A dark or angsty fic...and have had fb from people who have told me that they can buy B/A written the way I write it, but normally they don't like them at all. (Sadly, the fics aren't as well received by many B/Aers...*g*) I am sure that I have read pairings that don't appeal to me on some level...Oz/Angel for example, but in the hands of a talented writer, (lj user="glossolalia"> for example, the story is tremendous. I don't think there's anything wrong with telling a writer: "Hey, you know what, this isn't my normal thing, but this was fantastic." It's a compliment; at least I always intend it as one.

[hedda62.livejournal.com]

Thinking about this - I suspect whether feedback like that is viewed as an insult has to do with (as the other commenters said) the language used and how the subgenre is described. The only reviews I got of that sort had to do with not usually reading crossovers, which is something I sort of understand, since they usually suck. However, it's nice to see people overcome their prejudices, and when it's some broad area they decline to venture into (like het or slash or pastfics or futurefics), then as long as they're not singling out your fic as the one and only they'll ever be able to tolerate in that genre, it sounds like an excellent thing all around.

Of course, if the review starts "I don't usually read schmoop, but..." it is not to be trusted. :) But I suspect yours said something a lot more complimentary.

[rj-anderson.livejournal.com]

Heh on the schmoop.

as long as they're not singling out your fic as the one and only they'll ever be able to tolerate in that genre

But what if they do? Let's say that someone sent me a review for "Endings and Beginnings" that began, I don't read Harry/Ginny as a rule, but your story was recommended to me by someone I trust so I read it -- and I was really pleasantly surprised, it wasn't juvenile or saccharine at all. I still prefer to avoid H/G on principle, though.

Is that really offensive? I can't see it, myself. I might feel that the person in question was depriving themselves of some good fic, and I might even suggest to them a couple of other stories that they might want to try before giving up, but in the end it's really up to them what they want to read. Is it any different when the subgenre is het or slash or pastfics or futurefics?

[hedda62.livejournal.com]

Hmm. It might depend on how much investment you had in H/G - some people would get up in arms about having the ship described as "juvenile and saccharine" - but it would certainly be better to respond by saying "thanks, and have you tried these others that aren't juvenile either?" than get upset about it.

I have trouble thinking in genre or ship categories anyway, though, so I'm the wrong person to ask. I've never understood the people who say "I don't read slash" or "I don't read het" or "I don't read anything set in the MWPP era" - why not just find good writing? - but if they're really irritated or squicked by something then of course they can't be forced to read it. After all, there's an awful lot to read out there even in the fic world let alone everything else, so unless your OTP is McGonagall/Crookshanks and you won't read anything else ever, probably you'll be OK. :)

[erinbow.livejournal.com]

RJA, thanks for this post. It helped me sort out my bemusement and occasional resentment over what *I* often hear: "I don't usually like contemporary poetry, but .... "

[rj-anderson.livejournal.com]

You're welcome, Erin, and thanks in return. Especially since I would be one of the people giving you one of those "Darcy proposal" reviews, because the other contemporary poetry I've read really hasn't engaged me the way that yours does.

But then, it's entirely possible that I was just exposed to all the wrong contemporary poets in high school, and that I've had singularly bad luck with the contemporary poems I've encountered since in magazines and so on.

I can't say that I'm yet at the point where I'm about to embark on a quest for more contemporary poetry, but I can certainly say that I enjoy your work, and that I am significantly less inclined to be pessimistic about modern poetry as a result. So, hoorah for you! And all that. :)

No worries, I know you weren't trolling for a review. I just felt like giving you one anyway. Hey, everybody, go read Erin's poetry! (http://www.vividpieces.net/)

[erinbow.livejournal.com]

:::blushes:::

Well, if you ever do want recs on some non-bleak, no-magic-decoder-ring-required contemporary poetry, let me know. I am bursting with them.

BTW -- I love the term "Darcy Proposal" reviews, and plan to adopt it.

[chresimos.livejournal.com]

I was a bit befuddled by that post about people giving that kind of feedback, that appeared a while ago. I would take that kind of feedback as a very high compliment! It's not hard to convince a person who loves a character/pairing/scenario to like yours (although, depends on the pickiness of the person, I guess)...but actually being able to overcome another person's preconceived prejudices? Means you got something good. :D

[penwiper26.livejournal.com]

Heh. Dude, if I had to weed out all the FB that included a disclaimer regarding OCs or Mary Sues or long fics or a host of other things, I'd have claim to very little feedback at all! And so far, most people have been extremely kind in their reviews. Actually, what annoys me more than a rehearsal of people's pet peeves in fic is high-handed praise -- like, good girl, here's a cookie. Feh.

But mostly I'm just happy to hear that people are reading, period. It is all part of my evil world-conquest plan. *rubs hands*

[rj-anderson.livejournal.com]

*admires the pretty ASH icon*

I am so with your evil world-conquest plan. Have some cake.

[erinbow.livejournal.com]

:::also signs up to be Lisa's flunky in world-domination plan:::

[penwiper26.livejournal.com]

See, under my Mary Sue Regime, there will be a rubber chicken in every pot, and pot in every Persian slipper on every mantlepiece. (For those who like chicken and pot.)

We don't need no stinkin' genre police.

*gives little pirouette*

[rj-anderson.livejournal.com]

LOL.

Your icon keeps alarming me by looking like Peter Davison with a giant sticking-plaster on his head. What is that from, anyway?

[penwiper26.livejournal.com]

This icon is the Cheese Man, who appeared in the linked dreams of Buffy, Giles, Xander, and Willow in the S4 finale "Restless". He was sort of a David-Lynch-meaningless-but-funny-one-off character.

In this cap, he is informing Giles in his dream that "I wear the cheese. The cheese does not wear me."

Giles responds with a mutter: "Really, I meet the most appalling sort of people."

I use this icon when I want to say silly things.

:)

[hedda62.livejournal.com]

Somehow that reminds me of the joke where the man walks in with a frog growing out of his forehead, and someone asks, "What happened?" and the frog says, "Beats me - it started out as a bump on my butt."

*walks away muttering "The owls are not what they seem"*

[jessanndi.livejournal.com]

I think I came under that style of reviewer when I first read your work. And I agree it's the overcoming pre conceived ideas and prejudices. The Darcy Proposal.

[rj-anderson.livejournal.com]

Did you really? Well, you can see I hold a deep and bitter grudge, because I don't remember that at all. :)

And I can see that I am going to spend my whole afternoon chuckling over the icons people are using for these comments.

[zoepaleologa.livejournal.com]

Well, for what it is worth, I'd personally like to see more people in fandom reading stories for the sheer sake of good story, instead of fantasy fullfillment, which as a writer in a ship (albeit not committed to that particular ship given the IQ level of many of the idiots in it) I find tiresome in the extreme.

When I started reading fanfic over a year ago, your trilogy was the one that convinced me fanfic was not a pile of pants. Greying ones. Before I read D&L I could not believe the dross some folks were pasting on the internet.

Okay, I should have reviewed, but I was very new and did not know what to say... I was shy (hard to believe, now, but true).

Since then, I've realised the odium that OFC's in particular tend to come in for, particularly when I dared introduce an OFC into a ship story. It is utterly stupid. Good story, good writing is all that counts.

I'm in the ship of good writing meets good story. That's my one true pairing. I do not care who is in it, or what sort of content there is (provided it does not make me feel sick!) if the story is compelling, and makes me keep scrolling down.

I wish more readers would read for the sake of story, instead of this or that ship, slash or het, etc. I'm non-partisan and proud of it. Do I care what happens to the characters? Is the writing good? Those are the questions that matter to me. If the writer can invent original characters who appear to fit seamlessly into the Potterverse, then I can be confident they (those writers) are worth reading.

Let's just hear it for story/.

[rj-anderson.livejournal.com]

Hear, hear! *applauds* Especially about the stupidity of random OFC hatred, a subject long dear to my ranty li'l heart. But at the same time I do have some sympathy for people who have a really hard time getting past their reservations regarding certain pairings, plot elements and subgenres.

I mean, just speaking for myself, if an author I've read before and whose work I love suddenly decides to write Grey Lady/Peeves then there's a good chance I'll at least give it a try, however much the prospect alarms me. But if I just came across it on an archive somewhere? Not likely. And if it's NC-17 Grey Lady/Peeves/Mimbulus Mimbletonia/Firenze, then it may be brilliantly written but I'll never know it, because I'm just not going there. :)

Some people have moral objections to certain subgenres, others have psychological and emotional hindrances, and some just don't care for That Kind Of Thing (you're not likely to see me ever pick up a Western, for instance, without some serious extra incentive). I may be disappointed that certain people don't want to read my fics, but I can't really take them to task for it. I don't actually know, after all, that I would end up being an exception to their dislikes.

And thank you for the review! I didn't even know you'd read D&L. And I feel very pleased not to be pants, greying or otherwise. :)

[zoepaleologa.livejournal.com]

I didn't even know you'd read D&L.

*coughs* Heroic Snape. *coughs again*

[lydaclunas.livejournal.com]

NC-17 Grey Lady/Peeves/Mimbulus Mimbletonia/Firenze

I stay away from stuff like that, as a rule -- but for that one I might make an exception out of irresistible curiosity. ;)

[lydaclunas.livejournal.com]

I'm in the ship of good writing meets good story. That's my one true pairing.

Y'know, someone needs to make an icon out of that. If I hadn't just spent 2 hours making this Dumbledore icon, I'd do it. :)

[profshallowness.livejournal.com]

As other people have pointed out, this type of feedback isn't inherently offensive, and it's better to take it as a compliment, it just depends on the way it's couched (and you make a good point about whether there have been other attacks on the particular subgenre.) What's interesting is that the reader feels the need to put in that as context for their feedback. I can't recall if I've ever felt the need to start fb in that way, but I have spent a lot of time wondering if I want to tell an author how I came to find their work seeing as I'm writing this e-mail, post, well, cold?