rj_anderson | Why River REALLY knows the Doctor's name

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Why River REALLY knows the Doctor's name

I just thought of this right now and... I think... I think I might really be onto something here.

A lot of people have been assuming that the reason River knows the Doctor's real name is that she's his wife. It's obvious that she and the Doctor have a long history together and that she knows him very well, so it seems like a reasonable assumption.

BUT. The Doctor never says, nor does River, that this is the case. And although River tells Amy she is "very good" for coming up with the River-as-Mrs.-Doctor theory, we also know that River can lie convincingly (and even be flippant about it) when she wants to, especially when the truth is too serious, or intimate -- or damning -- to admit.

What if, when the Tenth Doctor says in FotD, "River, you know my name. You whispered my name in my ear. There's only one reason I would ever tell anyone my name. There's only one time I could," He was NOT referring to marriage, but to a time when he was dying -- really, ultimately dying with no chance of regeneration?

IMO, that idea would fit MUCH better with River's stricken expression and repeated apologies just before she whispers the Doctor's name into his ear back in FotD -- effectively, she was telling the Doctor not that she would one day become his wife (although that could be true as well), but something much more shattering for him to hear, that she had been with him when he died for the last time?

Obviously this couldn't just be a coincidence of "Oh, look, there's some person with me while I'm dying, I'll tell my name to them," because River uses her knowledge to convince the Doctor that one day, he will trust her absolutely. So it had to be the Doctor's own choice to have River by his side at his death and to give her the secret of his name, perhaps as part of some sacred Gallifreyan tradition ("only one reason... only one time I could").

I think this theory would also help to explain the very serious look the Doctor has on his face when he's talking to River in FaS about the man she supposedly killed. He's already known all along that River would be with him when he died -- now he's having to face the possibility that she was the one to kill him. However, as shown in the earlier episodes, he also gave her his sonic screwdriver at that time (she tells Ten rather angrily that she didn't pry it from his cold dead hands, and I don't think she's lying about that) so it seems most likely that he asks her to kill him... and you could well imagine the Eleventh Doctor finding that a sobering and unsettling thought, and not one he's ready to explore just yet.

Obviously the details are sketchy here, as I have no idea of the circumstances involved. But I do feel pretty confident about the underlying premise. It seems to fit well with everything we know so far -- though I'm willing to be corrected on this point by people with better memories than I have.

What say you, fellow Whofen?

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I like this theory much, MUCH better.

This is very like my own thoughts. This season is really enormously entertaining, isn't it?

It really is! I feel that I have discovered my joy in this show again.

OOOOOOH nice! Very nice! Oh, I like that. I really like that. It might be my favorite River theory.
I've always been on the team that doesn't think she's his wife. It's too obvious. But then again, maybe she is his wife, but even then that's not all there is to it, it's something much more complicated.
At least that's how I feel about it.

I think it is safe to say that whatever the answer is, it will be complicated, yes! And I would be disappointed in the writers if I could guess it all beforehand, so I am happy to have the details at least somewhat vague.

At the end of season 5 River is quoted "You're going to find out very soon now, and I'm sorry, but that's when everything changes"... So we can surmise that one of these big events will happen in season 6 or quite possible "if I am very Clever" The Christmas special will have one bang up conclusion in preparation for series 6 to keep us wanting.

Hmm. I like that theory. It makes sense.

I am glad you think so!

Hmm. This is very interesting, and I definitely think that the Doctor is the good man River killed. I am not positive about her killing him during his last regeneration, though I suppose it could happen. But the thing I'm not convinced by is the idea that the only time the Doctor could tell someone his name is as he was dying for the last time. Because he doesn't say "only one way I WOULD"--and would and could are very different. The only way I could see it happening is if the Dotor establishes a telepathic link with her as he's dying to transfer his memories--but why? It seems a bit extreme.

I rather wondered if she didn't find out the Doctor's name because she's an archaeologist and she uncovered relics of his deeds on Gallifrey, and just let him think he told here...

I have other theories about the season so far. We must discuss them on AIM soon.

Yes, that "only one way I COULD" is odd, indeed. It really does sound as though it's not a voluntary thing, or at least that there's only one very unusual set of circumstances under which it could become voluntary...

But there's the "last time you showed up at my door line". I like your theory, but I think that it might perhaps be some combination of the two. Personally, I think she's a great character and I'm willing to take any story Moffat wants to write about her.

Oh, yes, I enjoy River and will be interested to see how her story plays out regardless. But I do feel sure now that there's something very serious and even grim about the circumstances under which the Doctor tells her his name.

Great theory! Sounds plausible to me, though if we ever find out it is right does it means the end of the series? Or will the whole "time can be rewritten" thing let us avoid this?

I think we may actually find out before the end of this season! Or at least get a better idea of what's going on.

Glad I'm not the only one whose thoughts veer in that direction.

*veers madly here and there with you*

I do think it's clear that River kills the doctor, but I'm not sure that that negates the wife possibility. There's so much flirting (especially in Silence in the Library), so much about the dates they've taken...I guess I just don't see why the fact that she kills him would mean that she WASN'T his life companion.

Oh, definitely with the flirting. I have no doubt that they are very close, for whatever reason. I also like

pontisbright's proposal that River is the TARDIS. :)

Like! No idea whatsoever how it would work (and it stuffs the 'she killed Eight' theory I've seen bounce around which is rather tempting), but it fits with the know-your-name business, certainly. I'm torn over how seriously take the 'wife' and 'a good man, a hero to many' stuff as they point SO directly to assumptions that it's tempting to assume they're bluffs - but maybe that's just a double bluff for the over-thinky fan types...

Then again, I am still ever so fond of my River-is-the-TARDIS theory. Just because.

I have not seen the "she killed Eight" theory expounded in any detail. Do you have a link? I'd like to see that. (Aw, how could anybody kill Eight? It's like kicking a puppy!)

And I am very fond of your River-as-TARDIS theory too. I think the two theories can be smooshed together without much difficulty, don't you?

Haven't seen any detailed discussion of it either, alas - but, eh, it is missing canon. If you're going to retcon in a dead Doctor and not have to let it dictate future storylines, it's an option. (Arguably Six falling off his exercise bike counts too?) I'm surprised not to have seen anyone suggesting it's Handy she kills, though maybe that's even less likely.

(Obviously I do not approve of the puppy-kicking nature of Eight's death, but if it meant a PMG appearance, I would be v v v forgiving.)

I'm managing to believe three impossible AND contradictory things (though it is well after breakfast). If there's no big reveal and we never find out, I'm ok with that too. I'm currently about the easiest-to-please fangirl alive, and it is all Smiff's fault.

Obviously I do not approve of the puppy-kicking nature of Eight's death, but if it meant a PMG appearance, I would be v v v forgiving.

...

This is true. KILL EIGHT, RIVER. PLEASE KILL EIGHT SOON.

Sorry about all the edits.

Edited 2010-05-05 17:59 (UTC)

RJ. That is my theory! We are totally in sync with our Who theories!

Although, I haven't decided yet if she is arrested for 'killing' eleven - and the people don't believe that twelve is the same person.. and he thought he was actually going to die, like I'm sure Ten thought he was actually dying that time - or if she kills him properly, probably as a later incarnation (purely because the BBC wouldn't end on the eleventh doctor when there are more monies to to made)

Of course we are in sync, we are fellow Sounisians! Also, that icon will never stop being funny.

I'm not at all worried about River ending the franchise by killing the Doctor. I think it's more likely that she did something which other people interpreted as her killing the Doctor, when really it was part of a plan between her and the Doctor that may or may not actually have resulted in the end of his life. Very likely in a different incarnation from the one we're seeing now, anyway (Thirteen?).

It's a good theory. I like it! That said, there is one factor you may yet need to consider. As someone on my f-list (and I wish I could remember who!) pointed out in a defense-of-River-being-the-Doctor's-wife post yesterday, the Bishop doesn't seem to know much about the Doctor, asking River if she trusts the Doctor and not showing much faith in the Doctor actually being able to save the day. But he does seem to know about the "good man" and "hero to many" that River killed. On the surface, this would seem to rule out River killing the Doctor.

But...! (I'm working this out as typing, so, please, bear with a theory that may or may not hold water.) What if, for some reason, that incarnation of the Doctor was not going by "the Doctor" at the time... That would possibly explain some of the smugness that River has when talking about the Doctor to the Bishop. It's "I know something you don't know about someone you think you know."

Am I making any sense? It's okay to say no. ;)

You are making sense, and I agree, that is a strong point against the idea that River kills Eleven, or anyone that Octavian would recognize as the Doctor. (So if she does kill the Doctor it was probably a future incarnation.)

On the other hand, Octavian said just before he died that he blessed the path that would take Eleven to safety, and also that Eleven shouldn't trust River -- that seems to imply that he might have recognized a connection between this Doctor and the "good man" River kills later. Which fits into the second paragraph you wrote. If that makes sense. :D

Octavian! That's the name I couldn't remember earlier.

(So if she does kill the Doctor it was probably a future incarnation.)

Yes, definitely. I haven't thought of a way to make the theory fit River-kills-Eleven.

...Octavian said just before he died that he blessed the path that would take Eleven to safety...

I haven't watched the ep enough times to be sure if I can see that as being really significant. He's a priest, after all. Blessing things and asking God for people's safe journey is his job. ;D

Unfortunately, it's a bit obvious that by the time Octavian warns the Doctor about trusting River, the Doctor already trusts River. I'm not sure he's done much to change the Doctor's mind on that point. But, yes, I can definitely see the point of Octavian warning him being that he's realized that the Doctor and the "good man" are likely the same person.

Hi! I think your theory is very interesting, but I'm wary of it because that means ~~I'll never get rid of her~~ that they're somehow going to bring her back again and again, and that she's The Most Special Person in life. My own theory is that it's a Predestination Paradox and that he'd only tell someone his name if he knew they would know it in the future. Still, that's a very interesting, albeit chilling, theory.

I think you're definitely right, that's what I was thinking. It'll be quite a while though until we see whether it actually happens or is "rewritten" as the doctor puts it

Just a very random point, but anyone noticed any links between the words Tardis and River. If you remove the letters that are not common to both, you get "Starved" (or adverts). In terms of letters that are common to both you get R I R I - insignificant to me (shame it wasn't something profound to link with starved). More than likely irrelevant I know, but I'll be listening out for increases in the usage of starved in future episodes.

Also, as only part of the letters are similar, maybe River and Tardis are a part of each other as opposed to being one and the same.

R I R I = River Inside River Inside???

Hmmm, you may be on to something here. But I think that The Doctor tells her his real name when River meets The Doctor for the first time, maybe he says something like "When you get to the library, whisper my name in my ear, and then I will trust you". So maybe he does that because he knows that at first he doesn't trust River...

I know it's a bit complictated but....so is Doctor Who!

Thanks for reading!

The only issue here is WHEN in River's timeline does this happen? It would obviously be the very end of the Doctor's, so it would have to be the beginning of hers. But haven't we already seen enough of her timeline to know that it doesn't fit in?

I agree with you that River learns the Doctors name when he dies.

And he did die, with her at his side.

I beleive that the Doctor tells River his name in the "Let's Kill Hitler" episode. It's what triggers her decision to revive him.
It also fits with the theme of the last episode. The whole, silence will fall when the question is answered. Well, he answers the question by telling her his name. He does die, and silence does fall. It just doesn't last very long. After all, who more than the Doctor is *always* working on a way out of a sticky situation.

I believe that the idea of a Time Lord passing on his name at a final death is like passing on all of your history. River isn't a real Time Lord, so in her case she doesn't learn *all* that the Doctor was, like a real Time Lord would have, but she does *see* him more clearly than ever. Hence her ability to, and understanding of how to transfer all that she may be in the future into the Doctor. (And from a strictly practial perspective, it gives the BBC the perfect out should they want to continue the series after the 13th actor plays the Doctor. He'd have extra regenerations now because River may not have had to use as many as she did. It does kind of open the door beyond mere suggestion that one of the future Doctors could be played by a woman.)

This would also cover my one pet peeve with the moment she sees him in SinL when she runs into an obviously younger Doctor and is surprised he doesn't reconize her.

What if knowing his name gives her, over time, the ability to see all incarnations of the Doctor at once. Or more accurately, the other incarnations are overlaid on the current one. If Time Lords see all of what could be, is, and has been then it would stand to reason that should they know the key (their name,) to another Time Lord, then when they see that now dead Time Lord at a point in that person's past they would be able to see *all* about them.

Ya a little timey whimey but what the heck. I have a feeling that Moffat kind of digs that kind of circular reasoning when it comes to the Doctor.

Er.... hope you don't mind the rambling post. But I was just rewatching bits of Series 6 and needed to get this off my chest.

Dave

Cool theorizing! Maybe we'll learn more in S7...

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Actually i think that, in case no one knows, there is a prophecy that is said: "on the Fields of Trenzalore at the Fall of the Eleventh, when no creature can speak falsely, or fail to answer, a question will be asked. A question that must never ever be answered." and that question is "Doctor Who?" it doesn't say who he has to tell, and that seems like the only time he could or has to tell someone his name

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Why River REALLY knows the Doctor's name

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When did he tell her his name?

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